Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow

In message <479171aa$0$17825$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, at 14:42:32
on Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Luke O'Zade <No_one@home.?.invalid> remarked:
>> An airport worker told the BBC the pilot on the Boeing 777 had said he had
>> lost all power, and had been forced to glide the plane into land.
>>
>Seems to be most unusual that both engines fail at the same moment. Lack of
>fuel I wonder. (empty?). The flight crew did great job.

Quote: "Running out of fuel - although this continues to look unlikely
in itself, as the AAIB report says that a "significant amount"
of fuel leaked from the aircraft, and in any case that would not
explain why no early warning of fuel shortage was apparently
given to the crew."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7195921.stm
--
Roland Perry
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

"Luke O'Zade" <No_one@home> wrote in message
news:479171aa$0$17825$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>
>
> "Lansbury" <lansbury RemoveThis @spamcop.net> wrote in message
> news:nl9vo3tcc8u7op4kj1odkbcku1bc7kk5ur@4ax.com...
>>A passenger plane has crash-landed short of a runway at Heathrow Airport,
>> ripping off part of its undercarriage.
>>
>> All 136 passengers and 16 crew escaped from the British Airways flight
>> BA038
>> from Beijing. Thirteen people have been taken to hospital with minor
>> injuries.
>> An airport worker told the BBC the pilot on the Boeing 777 had said he
>> had
>> lost all power, and had been forced to glide the plane into land.
>>
> Seems to be most unusual that both engines fail at the same moment. Lack
> of fuel I wonder. (empty?). The flight crew did great job.
>
> Luke

More likely a fault in the throttle control system. The reports mention the
engines failing to respond to calls for extra power and the engines
were apparently running. The chances of a failure of both engines
simultaneously would seem to be vanishingly small.

Keith
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

In message <47927f6a$0$13959$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, at 09:53:29
on Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Luke O'Zade <No_one@home.?.invalid> remarked:
>It was very lucky that there was no fire considering the "significant
>amount" of fuel that leaked.

I suppose a wing tank was ruptured when the landing gear punched
through. Perhaps it flowed away in bulk, rather than being sprayed
around - it's less flammable that way. But the fire tenders were there
pretty promptly too.
--
Roland Perry
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

"Roland Perry" <roland.TakeThisOut@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rb3rhNQ3+ZkHFAjm@perry.co.uk...
> In message <479171aa$0$17825$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, at 14:42:32
> on Sat, 19 Jan 2008, Luke O'Zade <No_one@home.?.invalid> remarked:
>>> An airport worker told the BBC the pilot on the Boeing 777 had said he
>>> had
>>> lost all power, and had been forced to glide the plane into land.
>>>
>>Seems to be most unusual that both engines fail at the same moment. Lack
>>of
>>fuel I wonder. (empty?). The flight crew did great job.
>
> Quote: "Running out of fuel - although this continues to look unlikely
> in itself, as the AAIB report says that a "significant amount"
> of fuel leaked from the aircraft, and in any case that would not
> explain why no early warning of fuel shortage was apparently
> given to the crew."
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7195921.stm
> --
> Roland Perry

It was very lucky that there was no fire considering the "significant
amount" of fuel that leaked.

Luke
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

"Roland Perry" <roland.TakeThisOut@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Q0OV6PLT1wkHFAXr@perry.co.uk...
> In message <47927f6a$0$13959$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, at 09:53:29
> on Sun, 20 Jan 2008, Luke O'Zade <No_one@home.?.invalid> remarked:
>>It was very lucky that there was no fire considering the "significant
>>amount" of fuel that leaked.
>
> I suppose a wing tank was ruptured when the landing gear punched through.
> Perhaps it flowed away in bulk, rather than being sprayed around - it's
> less flammable that way. But the fire tenders were there pretty promptly
> too.
> --
> Roland Perry

The fact that it landed on wet grass (which underneath was probably pretty
sodden given the weather recently) means that the opportunity for sparks to
occur was limited compared with a landing on a runway.
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

Does anyone know why the 'BRACE' command was not issued to the passengers.
The Pilot said in an interview he was sure the landing was going to be much
worse.
The pilots knew the plane was in trouble for about 60secs prior to the
'landing'
However the passengers didn't know anything was wrong until the plane came
to a stop and an evaquation was ordered.

Some of the passengers had whip-lash injuries which could have been
prevented if the brace posture was adopted.

This is probably the type of landing it would have been most useful.

Next time I'm on a BA plane I must ask the cabin crew is there any point in
me listening to this demo'
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

In message <tGplj.822$HV6.253@newsfe4-win.ntli.net>, at 17:25:45 on Tue,
22 Jan 2008, Zach <whats.TakeThisOut@email.com> remarked:
>Does anyone know why the 'BRACE' command was not issued to the passengers.
>The Pilot said in an interview he was sure the landing was going to be much
>worse.
>The pilots knew the plane was in trouble for about 60secs prior to the
>'landing'
>However the passengers didn't know anything was wrong until the plane came
>to a stop and an evaquation was ordered.

If early reports that the plane lost all electrical power are true, then
the PA would not have been working.

And then there's the issue that apparently it all happened in the last
minute of the landing, so even if intercom to cabin crew and PA were
working, maybe not enough time to get the message out?
--
Roland Perry
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

On Jan 22, 5:25 pm, "Zach" <wh... DeleteThis @email.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know why the 'BRACE' command was not issued to the passengers.
> The Pilot said in an interview he was sure the landing was going to be much
> worse.
> The pilots knew the plane was in trouble for about 60secs prior to the
> 'landing'
> However the passengers didn't know anything was wrong until the plane came
> to a stop and an evaquation was ordered.
>
> Some of the passengers had whip-lash injuries which could have been
> prevented if the brace posture was adopted.
>
> This is probably the type of landing it would have been most useful.
>
> Next time I'm on a BA plane I must ask the cabin crew is there any point in
> me listening to this demo'


Aviate, navigate, communicate.

I suspect they were too busy flying the plane (aviating) towards LHR
(navigating) to have time to talk to the cabin (communicating). And
as Roland says below, it also takes time in the cabin to get everyone
in brace position. By the time the plane ran into difficulties the
cabin crew would have been strapped firmly into their seats.
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

Oh dear

You're not a no-win no-fee lawyer trying to drum up some business are you?

LOL

Kevin



"Zach" <whats.DeleteThis@email.com> wrote in message
news:tGplj.822$HV6.253@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
>
> Does anyone know why the 'BRACE' command was not issued to the passengers.
> The Pilot said in an interview he was sure the landing was going to be
> much
> worse.
> The pilots knew the plane was in trouble for about 60secs prior to the
> 'landing'
> However the passengers didn't know anything was wrong until the plane came
> to a stop and an evaquation was ordered.
>
> Some of the passengers had whip-lash injuries which could have been
> prevented if the brace posture was adopted.
>
> This is probably the type of landing it would have been most useful.
>
> Next time I'm on a BA plane I must ask the cabin crew is there any point
> in
> me listening to this demo'
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

On Jan 17, 7:05 pm, Lansbury <lansb....TakeThisOut@spamcop.net> wrote:
> A passenger plane has crash-landed short of a runway at Heathrow Airport,
> ripping off part of its undercarriage.
>
> All 136 passengers and 16 crew escaped from the British Airways flight BA038
> from Beijing. Thirteen people have been taken to hospital with minor injuries.
> An airport worker told the BBC the pilot on the Boeing 777 had said he had
> lost all power, and had been forced to glide the plane into land.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7194086.stm
>
> pictures
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7194201.stm


AAIB Update:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm_..._heathr

Full text:
"Since the issue of the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) 1st
Preliminary Report on Friday 18 January 2008 at 1700 hrs, work has
continued on all fronts to identify why neither engine responded to
throttle lever inputs during the final approach. The 150 tonne
aircraft was moved from the threshold of Runway 27L to an airport
apron on Sunday evening, allowing the airport to return to normal
operations.

The AAIB, sensitive to the needs of the industry including Boeing,
Rolls Royce, British Airways and other Boeing 777 operators and crews,
is issuing this update to provide such further factual information as
is now available.

As previously reported, whilst the aircraft was stabilised on an ILS
approach with the autopilot engaged, the autothrust system commanded
an increase in thrust from both engines. The engines both initially
responded but after about 3 seconds the thrust of the right engine
reduced. Some eight seconds later the thrust reduced on the left
engine to a similar level. The engines did not shut down and both
engines continued to produce thrust at an engine speed above flight
idle, but less than the commanded thrust.

Recorded data indicates that an adequate fuel quantity was on board
the aircraft and that the autothrottle and engine control commands
were performing as expected prior to, and after, the reduction in
thrust.

All possible scenarios that could explain the thrust reduction and
continued lack of response of the engines to throttle lever inputs are
being examined, in close cooperation with Boeing, Rolls Royce and
British Airways. This work includes a detailed analysis and
examination of the complete fuel flow path from the aircraft tanks to
the engine fuel nozzles.

Further factual information will be released as and when available."
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

On Jan 24, 1:08 pm, Roland Perry <rol... DeleteThis @perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <63f9ef5e-cdae-49b0-9c40-0b05fe959... DeleteThis @q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, at
> 04:30:21 on Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Cats <ramwa... DeleteThis @uk2.net> remarked:
>
> >AAIB Update:
>
> >http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a
> >t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm
>
> In other words, looks like the plane's controls were OK, but perhaps
> something blocked the fuel pipes.

Brave man sticking your neck out like that, unless we take the widest
possible view of 'blocking the fuel pipes' as in 'something was
stopping adequate fuel reaching the engines'. It's not gravity
feed...
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

On Jan 24, 1:59 pm, Roland Perry <rol... RemoveThis @perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message
> <202c9f60-a338-4e90-ba5b-7d7a2f913... RemoveThis @z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, at
> 05:28:26 on Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Cats <ramwa... RemoveThis @uk2.net> remarked:
>
> >> >AAIB Update:
>
> >> >http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a
> >> >t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm
>
> >> In other words, looks like the plane's controls were OK, but perhaps
> >> something blocked the fuel pipes.
>
> >Brave man sticking your neck out like that, unless we take the widest
> >possible view of 'blocking the fuel pipes' as in 'something was
> >stopping adequate fuel reaching the engines'.  It's not gravity
> >feed...
>
> Yes, but I get that impression from the way they talk about examining
> the entire length of the fuel feed. If the pumps had jammed, or lost
> their power or control systems, I think that might have been
> investigated by now.

They have said they are looking at the entire length of the fuel feed
- in my view that includes the pumps, their power and the control
systems.
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow 

In message
<63f9ef5e-cdae-49b0-9c40-0b05fe959d42.RemoveThis@q21g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, at
04:30:21 on Thu, 24 Jan 2008, Cats <ramwater.RemoveThis@uk2.net> remarked:
>AAIB Update:
>
>http://www.aaib.gov.uk/latest_news/accident_to_boeing_777_236__g_ymmm__a
>t_heathrow_airport_on_17_january_2008___initial_report_update.cfm

In other words, looks like the plane's controls were OK, but perhaps
something blocked the fuel pipes.
--
Roland Perry
 >> Stay informed about: Airliner crash-lands at Heathrow