Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary

"David Jones" wrote in message

 > Contrary to a common misconception, the location of the Europe-Asia
 > boundary is fairly well accepted by people who live close to it. For
 > example in Kazakhstan, its course is accepted to be marked by the Ural
 > river, and in Russia there are many obelisks which mark it - although it
 > is also true to say that they do not mark an exact zero-thickness line
 > and conceptions have changed in the course of Russian history.
 >
 > The line runs along the Ural river from the 17th century port of Atyrau
 > in Kazakhstan to the 20th century steel city of Magnitogorsk in Russia.
 > These two cities straddle the boundary. Between them lie Oral, Orenburg,
 > and Orsk, built on the European bank of the river.
 >
 > My questions concern the towns to the north of Magnitogorsk. They are
 > all to the east of the highest ridge in the Urals, so may well be
 > regarded as being in Asia, but I haven't pinned this down and would be
 > grateful for some help.
 >
 > They are:
 > Miass - ???
 > Pervouralsk ???
 > Nizhniy Tagil - ???
 > Serov - ???
 > Severouralsk -???
 > The Yamal peninsula???

I'd say all these are in Asia.

 > And the islands to the north of the Eurasian mainland ???

Europe.

 > I am not sure where the 60th meridian fits into the picture. This is
 > referred to in the US military definition. I am not sure if it has ever
 > had significance for people living in the area itself.

Don't think so, but I guess it's handy if your map hasn't got the Urals on
it!

My definition of the border would use the relatively longstanding
administrative boundaries. The whole of Kazakhstan is usually counted in
Asia for example, then I'd use the western boundary of the Urals okrug:
<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/maps/rusreg.gif" target="_blank">http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/maps/rusreg.gif</a>

Here's a nice old map I found, though it's a shame the eastern edge is cut
off: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.jewishgen.org/Belarus/images/russia.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.jewishgen.org/Belarus/images/russia.jpg</a>
It does suggest that some of the places on your list were "European".

What are your thoughts on Transcaucasia? The countries play soccer in the
European Federation but I tend to count them as Asian.

Adrian
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

In article , Adrian
Bailey writes




<snip>

  >> I am not sure where the 60th meridian fits into the picture. This is
  >> referred to in the US military definition. I am not sure if it has ever
  >> had significance for people living in the area itself.
 >
 >Don't think so, but I guess it's handy if your map hasn't got the Urals on
 >it!

What I'm interested in most is how people living there see things
Generally speaking the 60th meridian isn't relevant, but I've come
across a suggestion that it was considered relevant when a well-known
monument was put up close to the railway line near Pervoural'sk.

 >My definition of the border would use the relatively longstanding

Yes indeed - usually the same as in Soviet times.

 >administrative boundaries.

But in the region itself, for much of its length the Europe-Asia
boundary is not seen as following any administrative boundary.

 >The whole of Kazakhstan is usually counted in
 >Asia for example,

Locally the Ural river is usually considered to be the boundary, meaning
that a chunk of Kazakhstan is considered to be in Europe. One can argue
about whether or not Turkey should be considered to be in Europe, but
people living in Istanbul have long spoken of the boundary running
through the city; the same is true in Magnitogorsk.

 >then I'd use the western boundary of the Urals okrug:
 >http://www.nti.org/db/nisprofs/maps/rusreg.gif

In places there are bits that stick out into what is thought of locally
as Europe, e.g. one bit of the Chelyabinsk oblast' which points towards
Ufa.

 >Here's a nice old map I found, though it's a shame the eastern edge is cut
<font color=purple> >off: <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.jewishgen.org/Belarus/images/russia.jpg</font" target="_blank">http://www.jewishgen.org/Belarus/images/russia.jpg</font</a>>
 >It does suggest that some of the places on your list were "European".

Thanks for this. Another nice site is:

<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://openbudget.karelia.ru/budnord/english/fo_ural.htm" target="_blank">http://openbudget.karelia.ru/budnord/english/fo_ural.htm</a>

 >What are your thoughts on Transcaucasia? The countries play soccer in the
 >European Federation but I tend to count them as Asian.

I would call them in Asia too, and I would say that all of Russia north
of them, between the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea, including Mount
Elbrus, is in Europe According to this definition, Chechenia,
Daghestan, and Kalmykia would be in Europe.

Best regards,

--
David Jones
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

Adrian Bailey ( ) writes:
 > What are your thoughts on Transcaucasia? The countries play soccer in the
 > European Federation but I tend to count them as Asian.

When I ran a quiz on Europan capitals in rec.games.trivia a couple of
years ago, I used a definition where the highest peaks in the Caucasus
range defined the border. By this definition, Georgia and Azerbaijan
partly became part of Europe. (For the Ural, I used the Ural river
as the boundary.)

But there is also a definition which puts the border in the Manych basin,
which I believe is where the river that connected the Caspian Sea with
the Black Sea ran 10-12000 years ago. (Both were sweetwater lakes then.)
That definition puts all of the North-Caucasian republics in Asia.


--
Erland Sommarskog, Stockholm, sommar RemoveThis @algonet.se
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

Jeffrey Turner wrote:
 > David Jones wrote:
 >
  >> Contrary to a common misconception, the location of the Europe-Asia
  >> boundary is fairly well accepted by people who live close to it. For
  >> example in Kazakhstan, its course is accepted to be marked by the Ural
  >> river, and in Russia there are many obelisks which mark it - although it
  >> is also true to say that they do not mark an exact zero-thickness line
  >> and conceptions have changed in the course of Russian history.
  >>
  >> The line runs along the Ural river from the 17th century port of Atyrau
  >> in Kazakhstan to the 20th century steel city of Magnitogorsk in Russia.
  >> These two cities straddle the boundary. Between them lie Oral, Orenburg,
  >> and Orsk, built on the European bank of the river.
  >>
  >> My questions concern the towns to the north of Magnitogorsk. They are
  >> all to the east of the highest ridge in the Urals, so may well be
  >> regarded as being in Asia, but I haven't pinned this down and would be
  >> grateful for some help.
  >>
  >> They are:
  >>
  >> Miass - ???
 >
 > My 1993 National Geographic Atlas shows Miass to be clearly in Asia.

Miass is very close to the border, at the easternmost
extent south of about the 65th parallel.

  >> (Zlatoust is in Europe, only just)

No, Zlatoust is in Asia.

  >> Pervouralsk ???
  >> ('close' to a famous 'Europe-Asia' monument, but I am not
  >> sure which side of the monument the city is on)
 >
 > Borderline, possibly just to the European side but...

I found a better map, Pervoural'sk is clearly in Asia.

 >
  >>
  >> (Yekaterinburg is in Asia,
  >> about 40 kilometres east of the above-mentioned monument)
  >>
  >> Nizhniy Tagil - ???
  >> (possibly in Asia, since there is a monument
  >> between Nizhniy Tagil and Visim, but I don't know the
  >> direction in which the border runs in this area)
 >
 > Pretty much on the line.

Definitely Asia. Between Nizhniy Tagil and Severoural'sk the border
runs a good 50 km west of 60 East.

  >> Serov (another metallurgical centre) - ???
 >
 > Quite clearly in Asia
 >
  >> Severouralsk -???
 >
 > Also Asia.
 >
  >> The Yamal peninsula???
 >
 > Definitely east of the border.
 >
  >> And the islands to the north of the Eurasian mainland ???
 >
 > Just a guess, but it looks like Novaya Zemlya and Franz Josef
 > Land would be European and anything east of those Asian.
 >
  >> I am not sure where the 60th meridian fits into the picture. This is
  >> referred to in the US military definition. I am not sure if it has ever
  >> had significance for people living in the area itself.
 >
 > The Urals seem to more or less follow the 60th for a good stretch,
 > but at the northern end the EurAsian border zigs out to about 65
 > East at the coast.
 >
  >> Thanks!
  >>
  >> David

That is as close a reading as I can get. For
transcaucasia, it looks to me as if all of Georgia
and Azerbaijan, except for the northeast corner of
Azerbaijan, are in Asia.

--Jeff

--
"an enormous Proportion of Property vested in
a few Individuals is dangerous to the Rights,
and destructive of the Common Happiness, of
Mankind; and therefore every free State hath
a Right by its Laws to discourage the Possession
of such Property."
Ben Franklin

"To delight in war is a merit in the soldier,
a dangerous quality in the captain, and a
positive crime in the statesman."
George Santayana

"Bring them on."
George W. Bush
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
European states and speak European languages, and that for several
millennia.

Though, one or two centuries ago the British Empire and now the US are
running a very subtle campaign to "divorce" in the perception of the
people Western Europe (West of the Urals) and Eastern Europe (East of
the Urals), and thus the vastness and incredible riches of Siberia.
Brezinski and Kissinger call this "The game for the 'middle' region".
This in their books where they promote an American Empire, which is
essentially a new Carthage. In case you have difficulties to
understand this, have a look at the earth from the North Pole, it'll
be an eye-opener. It will also explain a lot of the American attempts
to set one European against another. Siberia/Eastern Europe holds
something like 70% (on average) of the world's wealth in minerals…

The moment you think about discussing Europe's borders on geographical
terms, you walked into their trap. Ask yourself this: Why on earth
should the Urals be a dividing line for Europeans? Should the
Europeans living in Siberia regard themselves as Chinese? (Hopefully
"liberated"/bought later by Americans – the US atrocities against
Russian (European) Alaskans are something to remember!) Don't be silly
and give up our most precious property – and a few dozen million
Europeans to an American power play! Besides, what the hell is "Asia"?
We Europeans/Romans have given it its name in the first place! Same
with Africa and Trans-Europa West, Trans-Europa West are of course the
two large islands between the western shores of Europe and the eastern
shores of Asia. Apart from the territory that can be called "America"
after the people who live there in a nation called the "USA". Perhaps
we should call it "The game for the ‘oceanic' region".

DFD
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

"DFD" wrote in message

 > Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
 > border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
 > is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
 > territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
 > European states and speak European languages, and that for several
 > millennia.
 >
 > Though, one or two centuries ago the British Empire and now the US are
 > running a very subtle campaign to "divorce" in the perception of the
 > people Western Europe (West of the Urals) and Eastern Europe (East of
 > the Urals), and thus the vastness and incredible riches of Siberia.
 > Brezinski and Kissinger call this "The game for the 'middle' region".
 > This in their books where they promote an American Empire, which is
 > essentially a new Carthage. In case you have difficulties to
 > understand this, have a look at the earth from the North Pole, it'll
 > be an eye-opener. It will also explain a lot of the American attempts
 > to set one European against another. Siberia/Eastern Europe holds
 > something like 70% (on average) of the world's wealth in minerals.
 >
 > The moment you think about discussing Europe's borders on geographical
 > terms, you walked into their trap. Ask yourself this: Why on earth
 > should the Urals be a dividing line for Europeans? Should the
 > Europeans living in Siberia regard themselves as Chinese? (Hopefully
 > "liberated"/bought later by Americans - the US atrocities against
 > Russian (European) Alaskans are something to remember!) Don't be silly
 > and give up our most precious property - and a few dozen million
 > Europeans to an American power play! Besides, what the hell is "Asia"?
 > We Europeans/Romans have given it its name in the first place! Same
 > with Africa and Trans-Europa West, Trans-Europa West are of course the
 > two large islands between the western shores of Europe and the eastern
 > shores of Asia. Apart from the territory that can be called "America"
 > after the people who live there in a nation called the "USA". Perhaps
 > we should call it "The game for the 'oceanic' region".

What a strange post. I understand that since Russia is a European country
all its citizens have the right to consider themselves Europeans, what
evidence do you have that the people of Siberia actually do so? And to call
the Urals the dividing line between East and West Europe is just trolling.

Adrian
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

DFD (DietmarDrewes@aol.com) writes:
 > Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
 > border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
 > is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
 > territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
 > European states and speak European languages, and that for several
 > millennia.

I guess this the price you pay for cross-posting a thread to a
soc.culture.* group. Coming from rec.games.trivia, we stick more
to the hard facts, how trivial they may be.

And fact is that there certainly have not been people east of the
Urals for several millenniums that could be called European. There
was hardly any Slavic population east of the Urals before 1500, and
hardly any population either that could be called "European".

 > The moment you think about discussing Europe's borders on geographical
 > terms, you walked into their trap.

Europe as a concept stems from geographical borders, and the fact that
the European civilizations owes a lot to what happened in the inner
parts of Mediterrenans, where the border is clearly visible. Had instead
Europe been shaped from a culture on the Iberian peninsula, or the
borders of the Baltic Sea, there would probably have been no Europe
at all, only a Eurasia.

But now there was a Europe and an Asia, and when the perspective widened,
it was necessary to invent a border where there not really was one, and
Urals was the best case.

And after all, looking at the world from a perspective of year 1500,
the Ural also constituted tghe extreme - with good margin - for anything
that could could be called European.

--
Erland Sommarskog, Stockholm, sommar.TakeThisOut@algonet.se
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

DFD wrote in message

 > Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
 > border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
 > is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
 > territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
 > European states and speak European languages, and that for several
 > millennia.

Europeans have been living along the Chinese border for several millennia?

Surreyman
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

The trap in the concept occurs in trying to call Europe a continent. In
sensible geographic terms it in a peninsula of the single Eurasian
continent. As a peninsula with a very broad base it is difficult to
define a boundary. The designation of East of the Urals as Eastern
Europe is strange to folks brought up on the cold war concept where
communism defined "eastern europe". To try to put Siberia in europe is
strange. Should we include Alaska in europe as well? It's connection
to Moscow is at least as good as that of Siberia. Perhaps western
Canada and the NW US as well. FFM

DFD wrote:

 > Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
 > border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
 > is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
 > territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
 > European states and speak European languages, and that for several
 > millennia.

Perhaps China should be included in Europe as well. The great Kahn
ruled there also. FFM

 > Though, one or two centuries ago the British Empire and now the US are
 > running a very subtle campaign to "divorce" in the perception of the
 > people Western Europe (West of the Urals) and Eastern Europe (East of
 > the Urals), and thus the vastness and incredible riches of Siberia.
 > Brezinski and Kissinger call this "The game for the 'middle' region".
 > This in their books where they promote an American Empire, which is
 > essentially a new Carthage. In case you have difficulties to
 > understand this, have a look at the earth from the North Pole, it'll
 > be an eye-opener. It will also explain a lot of the American attempts
 > to set one European against another. Siberia/Eastern Europe holds
 > something like 70% (on average) of the world's wealth in minerals…
 >
 > The moment you think about discussing Europe's borders on geographical
 > terms, you walked into their trap. Ask yourself this: Why on earth
 > should the Urals be a dividing line for Europeans? Should the
 > Europeans living in Siberia regard themselves as Chinese? (Hopefully
 > "liberated"/bought later by Americans – the US atrocities against
 > Russian (European) Alaskans are something to remember!) Don't be silly
 > and give up our most precious property – and a few dozen million
 > Europeans to an American power play! Besides, what the hell is "Asia"?
 > We Europeans/Romans have given it its name in the first place! Same
 > with Africa and Trans-Europa West, Trans-Europa West are of course the
 > two large islands between the western shores of Europe and the eastern
 > shores of Asia. Apart from the territory that can be called "America"
 > after the people who live there in a nation called the "USA". Perhaps
 > we should call it "The game for the ‘oceanic' region".
 >
 > DFD
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

  > > Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
  > > border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
  > > is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
  > > territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
  > > European states and speak European languages, and that for several
  > > millennia.

Some belive, that Europe ends at the Bug river ....


--
Jacek
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

Uzytkownik "Frank F. Matthews" napisal w
wiadomosci
 > The trap in the concept occurs in trying to call Europe a continent. In
 > sensible geographic terms it in a peninsula of the single Eurasian
 > continent. As a peninsula with a very broad base it is difficult to

I don`t think that many people share this idea of Mao ( Europe as a
peninsula of Asia )

--
Jacek
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

When European looking Russians beating you up and stealing your money
changes to Asian looking Russians beating you up and stealing your money,
you know you have crossed the boundary.


"DFD" wrote in message

 > Europe begins and ends where the Europeans live. To the east the
 > border is with China along the Amur and Ussuri river, to the west it
 > is the Atlantic coast of Portugal, the people living in these
 > territories are Europeans, posses European culture, are citizens of
 > European states and speak European languages, and that for several
 > millennia.
 >
 > Though, one or two centuries ago the British Empire and now the US are
 > running a very subtle campaign to "divorce" in the perception of the
 > people Western Europe (West of the Urals) and Eastern Europe (East of
 > the Urals), and thus the vastness and incredible riches of Siberia.
 > Brezinski and Kissinger call this "The game for the 'middle' region".
 > This in their books where they promote an American Empire, which is
 > essentially a new Carthage. In case you have difficulties to
 > understand this, have a look at the earth from the North Pole, it'll
 > be an eye-opener. It will also explain a lot of the American attempts
 > to set one European against another. Siberia/Eastern Europe holds
 > something like 70% (on average) of the world's wealth in minerals.
 >
 > The moment you think about discussing Europe's borders on geographical
 > terms, you walked into their trap. Ask yourself this: Why on earth
 > should the Urals be a dividing line for Europeans? Should the
 > Europeans living in Siberia regard themselves as Chinese? (Hopefully
 > "liberated"/bought later by Americans - the US atrocities against
 > Russian (European) Alaskans are something to remember!) Don't be silly
 > and give up our most precious property - and a few dozen million
 > Europeans to an American power play! Besides, what the hell is "Asia"?
 > We Europeans/Romans have given it its name in the first place! Same
 > with Africa and Trans-Europa West, Trans-Europa West are of course the
 > two large islands between the western shores of Europe and the eastern
 > shores of Asia. Apart from the territory that can be called "America"
 > after the people who live there in a nation called the "USA". Perhaps
 > we should call it "The game for the 'oceanic' region".
 >
 > DFD
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary 

The question that has puzzled me for a long time: are the Caucasian
countries and Turkey to be assigned to Europe or to Asia?

IMHO the border between Europe and Asia is largely the matter of
religion: so, Cyprus, Georgia, and Armenia are European, whereas
Turkey and Azerbaijan are Asian countries, no?

Thanks, Andrey
 >> Stay informed about: Some questions about Europe-Asia boundary