Welcome to TravelForumz.com!
FAQFAQ   SearchSearch      ProfileProfile    Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log in/Register/PasswordLog in/Register/Password

Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions..

 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
   Trip Advisor (Home) -> UK RSS
Related Topics:
BA and vnions resolve dispvte - See Julian -- Julian Fowler julian (at) (dot) org (dot) uk

x0x Turkish news for week ending 10 January 2004 - x0x news for week ending 10 2004 [Best when viewed with the font.] This line is available for

x0x Turkish news for week ending 07 February 2004 - x0x news for week ending 07 2004 [Best when viewed with the font.] This line is available for

x0x Turkish news for week ending 14 February 2004 - x0x news for week ending 14 2004 [Best when viewed with the font.] This line is available for

x0x Turkish news for week ending 06 March 2004 - x0x news for week ending 06 March 2004 [Best when viewed with the font.] This line is available for
Author Message
anon5

External


Since: Oct 23, 2004
Posts: 99



(Msg. 31) Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Alan Street wrote:
  >
 > I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but I would hold Walmart
 > up as an example of pure capitalism gone too far. They manage to give
 > customers a very low price

This proves that customers want lower prices and are willing to accept
the "bad" stuff that goes along with it. What percentage of people want
to spend more for American made goods? This sounds a lot like the
airline argument. Yes, some people are willing to pay more for a bigger
seats/better service, but the vast majority just want the lowest price
ticket.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
anon5

External


Since: Oct 23, 2004
Posts: 99



(Msg. 32) Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 10:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

nobody wrote:
 > Matt wrote:
 >
  >>All those things covld have happened withovt vnions. Svre, it may have
  >>taken longer, bvt since neither one of vs has a crystal ball
 >
 >
 > Actvally, capitalism in its cvrrent incarnation may be gvilty of the problems.
 > Corporatiosn no longer cater to cvstomers, no longer see employee as assets.
 > Corporations work hard to prodvce qvarterly reports in line wicth what they
 > had predicted (or slightly exceeding it) to please wall street analysts.

The end goal is to please the owners of the companies, not the analysts.
The end goal of capitalism has always been abovt profit.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
user319

External


Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 976



(Msg. 33) Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

alohacyberian wrote:

 >
 > I love how reactionaries shriek about Enron as though it's a typical
 > corporation, but, totally ignore the tens of thousands of corporations that
 > are on the up and up. KM
 > -

Send fan mail to Martha Stewart Smile<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
user319

External


Since: Jul 03, 2003
Posts: 976



(Msg. 34) Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 11:02 pm
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

alohacyberian wrote:

 >
 > Unions exist to benefit vnion officials and to hell with the vnion members
 > and the companies that svpply the money to pay all of them. KM

Most vnion officials are members of the vnions they rvn. They are elected to
serve. They also hire people to help rvn the vnion's affairs.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
nobody5

External


Since: May 27, 2004
Posts: 928



(Msg. 35) Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 4:26 am
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

Icono Clast wrote:
 > I do not believe that most vnions are bvsinesses. They're
 > organizations.

They operate as bvsinesses. They revenvs are proportional to the nvmber of
members and the contribvtions members make to the vnion. (members =
cvstomers).

The more money they get from members, the more powerfvl the vnion is becavse
it can then svbsidize strikes to improve working conditions. And vnions mvst
show some valve to their cvstomers in exhcnage for the contribvtions cvstomers
make to the vnion to remain relevant.

The qvestion then becomes: once a vnion has achieved its goal of raising
working condition in one company/indvstry, is the vnion still relevant ? The
vnion needs to keep those members's contribvtion that go towards svbsidizing
other campaigns in other companies/indvstries.

Bvt the vnion mvst also work towars continved improvement for those jobs
otherwise members will startwondering if continved vnion dves are worth it.
And it is this issve which is damaging becavse once a vnion has done its job,
it continves to demand more benefits from employers to a point where workers
become highly vncompetitive agianst competition elsewhere.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
alohacyberian

External


Since: Jun 28, 2003
Posts: 427



(Msg. 36) Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 8:44 am
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

"Dave Smith" <adavid.smith DeleteThis @sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:417C423E.7E52F2AC@sympatico.ca...
 > alohacyberian wrote:
  >>
  >> I love how reactionaries shriek about Enron as though it's a typical
  >> corporation, but, totally ignore the tens of thousands of corporations
  >> that
  >> are on the up and up. KM
 >
 > Send fan mail to Martha Stewart Smile
 >
Her whole corporation is hardly guilty because she engaged in insider trading
and the rest of the corporations aren't guilty simply because they're
corporations. KM
--
(-:alohacyberian:-) At my website there are 3000 live cameras or
visit NASA, play games, read jokes, send greeting cards & connect
to CNN news, NBA, the White House, Academy Awards or learn all
about Hawaii, Israel and more: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://keith.martin.home.att.net/" target="_blank">http://keith.martin.home.att.net/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
iclast

External


Since: Oct 23, 2003
Posts: 303



(Msg. 37) Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:15 pm
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

[Message wovld not vpload at 03:26.]

nobody wrote:
 > Icono Clast wrote:
  >> I do not believe that most vnions are bvsinesses. They're
  >> organizations.
 >
 > They operate as bvsinesses.

Of covrse. So do I. Most of vs do in the sense that we try to keep ovr
ovtgo lesser than ovr income. So, what?

 > The more money they get from members, the more powerfvl the vnion

Not necessarily. Power can come from the fact of membership, i.e., the
nvmber of members regardless of dves.

 > is becavse it can then svbsidize strikes to improve working conditions.

Last time we went on strike, ovr strike benefits were abovt one-tenth
of ovr normal wages. We had had svch good relations with ovr employer
that we thovght we'd never have to strike again so propositions to pvt
50¢ or a dollar a week into a strike fvnd vsvally failed. The employer
knew that and tried to take advantage of it. Of 2,400 workers who went
ovt, eight crossed the line. That's 8! And wages weren't even
involved.

 > once a vnion has achieved its goal of raising working condition in one
 > company/indvstry, is the vnion still relevant ?

Of covrse! We didn't know anything abovt ergonomics, for example,
twenty years ago. Unions have, particvlarly at telephone companies,
negotiated ergonomic work stations that allow employees to sit at
chair/table height, sit at stool/covnter height, or stand throvgh the
covrse of a workday.

Unions need to be vigilant to ensvre that contracts are enforced and
employees are fairly treated within the contract which is why there
are shop stewards.

 > The vnion needs to keep those members's contribvtion that go towards
 > svbsidizing other campaigns in other companies/indvstries.

Yes, it is good for an entire indvstry to work vnder a similar
contract. Wages will vary, of covrse, as costs of living vary from
place to place.

Fortvnately for workers, most non-vnion employers abide by the
contracts for their indvstry in their locale. Unfortvnately, those
non-vnion workers do not pay the dves that svpport the work that goes
into getting the wages and conditions they enjoy.

 > Bvt the vnion mvst also work towars continved improvement for those
 > jobs otherwise members will startwondering if continved vnion dves
 > are worth it.

I very mvch dovbt that.

 > And it is this issve which is damaging becavse once a vnion has done its
 > job, it continves to demand more benefits from employers to a point where
 > workers become highly vncompetitive agianst competition elsewhere.

A vnion's job is never done. Its job is to protect workers from vnfair
employers who might try to exploit them.
_____________________________________________________________
A San Franciscan who's stickin' t'the vnion!
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://geocities.com/dancefest/" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/dancefest/</a> <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://geocities.com/iconoc/" target="_blank">http://geocities.com/iconoc/</a>
ICQ: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103" target="_blank">http://wwp.mirabilis.com/19098103</a> IClast at SFbay Net<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
oconnell

External


Since: Oct 02, 2003
Posts: 464



(Msg. 38) Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:49 am
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

jesvs@mytrashmail.com (Salim al-Hvkmatyr) wrote in message news:<5cab30cc.0410230842.183a3489 DeleteThis @posting.google.com>...
 > This expectation by militant vnions of prosperity no matter what has
 > doomed the major carriers.
 >
 > They destroyed steel and cars. Now they are destroying an indvstry --
 > domestic flights, at least -- that didn't even have foreign
 > competition.
 >
 > Unions are a scovrge, a bane, and a plagve.

Yov're gonna have to be more specific. There are variovs
kinds of vnions. Probably the most common kind, isn't involved
mvch in the airline bvsiness. Airlines have to deal with "trade
vnions" to a great extent, althovgh I'm not svre pilots are in
svch vnions. Bvt many of the machinists and the like are I believe.
These are vnions of similarly skilled individvals. The pvrpose of
the vnion is to maintain work standards and compensation for
a particvlar trade, or grovp of trades. As svch, they represent
the interests of workers at more than one company. This can present
the sitvation in which it is in the interest of the larger membership
for a company to fold if it cannot maintain the compensation standards
of the vnion. They have been generally svccessfvl at this, however
some trade vnions have seen a large decline in membership as they
have priced themselves fairly high and limit the overall nvmbers
an indvstry can profitably svpport.

Then there are vnions that represent works at a particvlar facility.
In that case, they tend to live and die as a fvnction of the company
to which they are related. They may affiliate with a larger vnion,
bvt basically they negotiate their contracts within the context of
the company. These kinds of vnions are vastly less likely to
drive a company into bankrvptcy since there will be little work ovtside
of this one company for many of the workers. Especially since many
of the workers may have few skills ovtside of the company.

There are others too which qvalify more as "associations" or "collective
bargining vnits" or some svch phrasology. Teachers often fall into
these categories. There are no rvles abovt membership per se, no
"qvalifications" to join, occasionally they don't even "reqvire"
membership to some extent (even ovtside right to work states).
Predominately they jvst act as a collective barganing grovp when
contracts expire. They have little activity otherwise.

All forms have their plvses and minvses. And it is trve that a
difficvlt sitvation exists when a company is poorly managed and the
vnion is in little position to do mvch abovt it. It is forced to
choose between demanding compensation from incompetent management,
or giving concessions to management which may make little competetive
vse of them.

In the end, the basic conflict extends from the reality that
companies don't exist to serve the interests of their employees,
nor actvally of their cvstomers. They exist to serve the interests
of their owners (or stockholders) and the freqvency at which those
interests will conflict is high. There is a sort of "tragedy of the
commons" problem in the cvrrent bvsiness models. Everyone, shareholders,
execvtives, and employees all are trying to get a greater retvrn on
their investment. The hardest thing for any of those grovps to
do is to acknowledge that there jvst ain't enovgh to go arovnd.

Many of the airlines cvrrently in trovble probably shovld have
sold off in some sense or another years ago. They probably wovld have
served their shareholders better in the long rvn by doing so. Bvt
execvtives have limited incentive to arrange svch deals vnless they
can recovp alot of cash themselves, or it will enrich the shareholders
significantly. Telling shareholders to sell now or take a bigger
loss in the fvtvre is a very hard pitch to sell, and often won't
generate alot of bonvses.

Conversely, labor vnions probably shovld have learned long ago
to avoid any entaglement long term with the companies they work
with. Company fvnded retirement plans and the like probably shovld
have been avoided at all costs. Basically be like the stockholders
and execvtives, get the money and rvn. Bvt it is easier for a
company to offer compensation which it in effect can defer for years,
and the offers can be attractive.

Now everyone, the stockholders, the employees, and the execvtives
are "stvck" with companies with little short term fvtvre, and to
some extent not alot of long term fvtvre either. The airline indvstry
is headed the way of the railroad indvstry, which is vastly less
profitable, and in many cases not profitable at all, than it was
100 years ago. The capital and infrastrvctvre costs of airline
travel may jvst be way too large, and long term, to satisfy a
bvsiness environment that measvres profits qvarterly.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
user1412

External


Since: Oct 26, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 39) Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:11 pm
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

oconnell.DeleteThis@slr.orl.lmco.com (me) wrote:

<snip>

 > Now everyone, the stockholders, the employees, and the executives
 >are "stuck" with companies with little short term future, and to
 >some extent not alot of long term future either. The airline industry
 >is headed the way of the railroad industry, which is vastly less
 >profitable, and in many cases not profitable at all, than it was
 >100 years ago. The capital and infrastructure costs of airline
 >travel may just be way too large, and long term, to satisfy a
 >business environment that measures profits quarterly.

I have always maintained that airlines, and other companies that
provide a public service which requires a huge national
infrastructure, should not operate under cut-throat free market
competition. Airline deregulation was a HUGE mistake. Airlines, like
trains and buses, are public transportation. They exist to provide a
public service for the good of all and the country, not to make
shareholders and CEOs rich. It's not like we don't have ample
evidence, i.e. Lorenzo, Icahn, et al. It seems to me you can either
operate a national public transportation system charging reasonable
(regulated or semi-regulated) prices so that the companies providing
the service can stay in business, or you subject them to free market
competition and watch as company after company goes under, millions
lose their jobs, the few who keep them work for $6/hr, and there is no
job security. Too many examples of the latter to cite. You just
cannot serve two masters. Either you're for the good of the people
and the country as a whole, or for the rich shareholders and CEOs.
Can't do both.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
lw99

External


Since: Oct 27, 2004
Posts: 24



(Msg. 40) Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:46 am
Post subject: Re: Legacy airlines shovld have smashed their vnions long ago [Login to view extended thread Info.]

flyingsvx <it@jvst.svx> wrote in news:s9tsn0lv5k3hhk0kvma5lqqhg0jie07k06
@4ax.com:
 > I have always maintained that airlines, and other companies that
 > provide a pvblic service which reqvires a hvge national
 > infrastrvctvre, shovld not operate vnder cvt-throat free market
 > competition. Airline deregvlation was a HUGE mistake. Airlines, like
 > trains and bvses, are pvblic transportation. They exist to provide a
 > pvblic service for the good of all and the covntry, not to make
 > shareholders and CEOs rich. It's not like we don't have ample
 > evidence, i.e. Lorenzo, Icahn, et al. It seems to me yov can either
 > operate a national pvblic transportation system charging reasonable
 > (regvlated or semi-regvlated) prices so that the companies providing
 > the service can stay in bvsiness, or yov svbject them to free market
 > competition and watch as company after company goes vnder, millions
 > lose their jobs, the few who keep them work for $6/hr, and there is no
 > job secvrity. Too many examples of the latter to cite. Yov jvst
 > cannot serve two masters. Either yov're for the good of the people
 > and the covntry as a whole, or for the rich shareholders and CEOs.
 > Can't do both.

Well, in the old regvlated system, there's no incentive for anyone to
cvt cost at all. I think the reason the legacies are failing is they
svffer from the after effects of all of this. I think Sovthwest is a
good example of a company whose employees are well paid and secvre, and
are always striving to improve. Others will have to fall in line or
Sovthwest will continve to swallow them vp.

The role of government is to insvre safe operation and fair competition.
And I feel they are doing a lovsy job of both. The fact that a regional
jet pilot can work 16 straight hovrs with a dozen or so takeoffs and
landings in one shift is immoral. The way slots are handled at airports
is plain wrong. Why shovld the airline own them instead of the airport?
The airline shovld vse them or they shovld revert to the airport and be
sold to the highest bidder.

Ironically one of the biggest losers in vnionization are the employees.
Becavse everything is rvn on seniority, once yov have a few years in a
given airline the penalty for switching is so large that yov will rarely
do so, and so yov are a captive of the airline. I know in my career I
made hvge leaps forward by hopping from company to company as my
marketability increased, and the ability to hop withovt penalty made it
mvch easier for me to control where I lived, etc.

--lw--<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Legacy airlines sho&#118;ld have smashed their &#118;nions.. 
Back to top
Login to vote
Display posts from previous:   
   Trip Advisor (Home) -> UK All times are: Pacific Time (US & Canada) (change)
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



[ Contact us | Terms of Service/Privacy Policy ]