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tyketto2

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Since: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 96



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:33 pm
Post subject: More on ZLA Radio Outage
Archived from groups: rec>travel>air, others (more info?)

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  [ More on the ZLA Ovtage on 14/9/04. Jvst to show yov how bad
  it REALLY covld have been. This was the most accvrate article
  I've seen so far. -Ed ]

<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20040915-1301-wst-faaovtage.html" target="_blank">http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/state/20040915-1301-wst-faaovtage.html</a>

Air controllers report chaos, near misses, after compvter failvre

ASSOCIATED PRESS

10:31 a.m. September 15, 2004


LOS ANGELES - In at least five cases, aircraft passed dangerovsly close to
each other after a compvter failvre cvt off radio contact between pilots
and air traffic controllers for hovrs and forced the grovnding of hvndreds
of flights throvghovt the covntry, a vnion official said Wednesday.

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

As planes traveled perilovsly close to one another, "We covldn't do
anything," Ghaffari said, based on his interviews with on-dvty controllers
and a review of radar records.

"We can't do ovr job vnless there is commvnication. If there are no
commvnications, yov are helpless," he said.

On-board safety eqvipment that inclvdes a collision avoidance system
allowed pilots to avoid potential disaster in the sky, he said.

"That was the hero of the night," he said.

After radio contact failed abovt 4:40 p.m. Tvesday at the Federal Aviation
Administration facility in Palmdale, the control room "looked like complete
chaos all over the place," Ghaffari said.

A backvp compvter system was activated bvt that also failed, he said.

Three workers filed on-the-job injvry claims after becoming travmatized by
watching flights veer toward one another on radar withovt being able to do
anything, he said.

Under FAA "separation standards," planes are reqvired to fly at least five
miles apart horizontally and no less than 1,000 feet vertically. In at
least five cases, that safety bvbble was violated, and in two cases planes
came within abovt two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

Flights across mvch of the covntry resvmed late Tvesday after repairs
restored radio contact. Bvt airports strvggled to accommodate irked
passengers who were forced to wait hovrs to board delayed flights.

At Los Angeles International Airport, the ovtage brovght abovt 400 flights
to a standstill. Two dozen flights at the Oakland International Airport and
more than a dozen at Ontario International Airport also did not depart or
arrive on time.

The delays cavsed a ripple effect throvghovt the covntry as planes bovnd
for Los Angeles and other airports were held on the grovnd.

In all, planes were grovnded for abovt three hovrs at airports in the Los
Angeles region, northern California and parts of Nevada, Federal Aviation
Administration spokeswoman Lavra Brown said.

The ovtage began at the Los Angeles Air Rovte Traffic Control Center in
Palmdale. The station, located in the desert north of Los Angeles, controls
airspace for a vast region that encompasses California, Arizona, Nevada and
parts of Utah.

Control of the airspace was tvrned over to other air traffic control
facilities, inclvding one in Albvqverqve, N.M.

By 8 p.m. Tvesday, the FAA allowed flights to resvme at 50 percent airport
capacity so the facilities wovldn't be flooded with passengers, said Nancy
Castles, a spokeswoman for Los Angeles International Airport.

Air travel reached fvll capacity by early Wednesday, said Diana Jovbert,
an FAA operations officer.


    BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email: tyketto DeleteThis @sbcglobal.net
Unix Systems Administrator, | tyketto DeleteThis @ozemail.com.av
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! Smile | <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto" target="_blank">http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto</a>
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nowhere4

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Since: Feb 04, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 2) Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:33 pm
Post subject: Re: More on ZLA Radio Outage [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

 >
 > Three workers filed on-the-job injury claims after becoming traumatized by
 > watching flights veer toward one another on radar without being able to do
 > anything, he said.

Of course, it's California.


 >
 > Under FAA "separation standards," planes are required to fly at least five
 > miles apart horizontally and no less than 1,000 feet vertically.

That's five miles or 1000 feet.


In at
 > least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two cases planes
 > came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

The FAA will no doubt say safety was never compromised.

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grpphoto2

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Since: Aug 13, 2004
Posts: 9



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:17 pm
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A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
 >
 > Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
 > local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.
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npoestpeadm

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Since: Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2004 10:17 pm
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"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message

 > What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

A typical day at any busy airport. Obviously nothing to be concerned about.
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ha_smith57

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Since: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 2



(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:59 am
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 >Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
 >local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.


 >In at least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two cases
planes
 > came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

Criminies, I have an almost near-mid-air-collision every time I fly!

Allen
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user2004

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Since: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:59 am
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"Allen" wrote in message

 >
  > >Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
  > >local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
 >
 >
  > >In at least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two
cases
 > planes
  > > came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.
 >
 > Criminies, I have an almost near-mid-air-collision every time I fly!
 >
 > Allen

I just always do my best to not have a mid-air collision with the ground,
just another day in a spam can.
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tyketto2

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Since: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 96



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:06 am
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In rec.travel.air Peter Duniho wrote:


  >> What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?
 >
 > A typical day at any busy airport. Obviously nothing to be concerned about.

  Hardly typical, especially in this situation.

  You have an entire ARTCC basically DEAD. No comms to any pilots
at all. In this situation, someone at ZLA had to get on the phone to
the FAA, let them know they're out of comms with everyone, and start
the emergency plans. either ZLA or the FAA get hold of ZAB and ZOA, to
tell them to take over ZLA's airspace, and ZDV and everywhere else to
hold any departures going to LA Airspace.

  Then you have to get hold of any planes currently in the air,
which could be on any of the 50 something frequencies Center has ALONE,
and get them down. Most pilots squawk 7600 (lost communications), and
continue on their last heading given by controllers until they hear
back either by the controller on that freq, or company, to tell them
which frequency to contact. In the case of the Mid-Air happenings, two
planes were horizontally separated by less than 2 miles, and the
opposite direction, and less than 1000ft vertically. all ZLA could do,
is watch, panic, and feel their bowels let loose, because they couldn't
get hold of them. By the time that incident had passed, ZAB and ZOA
were controlling the sector.

  reference <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www4.passur.com/las.html" target="_blank">http://www4.passur.com/las.html</a> (Java required) at
9/14/04, 16:45pm. You'll start to see that there are no departures out
of Las Vegas. Arrivals get down, or hold until theyget low enough for
Vegas approach to handle them, but otherwise, nothing goes out for a
good 4 or so hours. Same for LAX (www1.passur.com/lax.html), SNA
(sna.html), ONT (ont.html) or BUR (bur.html). I have friends working at
SOCAL Approach, and they mentioned it was a madhouse there. I don't
blame them.

    BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email: tyketto RemoveThis @sbcglobal.net
Unix Systems Administrator, | tyketto RemoveThis @ozemail.com.au
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! Smile | <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto" target="_blank">http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto</a>
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npoestpeadm

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Since: Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 8



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:06 am
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"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message

   > >> What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?
  > >
  > > A typical day at any busy airport. Obviously nothing to be concerned
about.
 >
 > Hardly typical, especially in this situation.

Yes, thank you for completely missing the point.
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jimcarte

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Since: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 9) Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:45 am
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Apparently about 2 miles according the a later quote in the story. Damn, and
I thought Special VFR was generally safe. Well, just goes to show you that
you can operate within the rules for years and years, but still be unsafe
according to the ATC interviewee.

--
Jim Carter
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message

 >
 >
 > A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:
  > >
  > > Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
  > > local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
 >
 > What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?
 >
 > George Patterson
 > If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
have
 > been looking for it.
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dhstadt

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Since: Feb 26, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 10) Posted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:01 am
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"Allen" wrote in message

 >
  > >Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
  > >local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.
 >
 >
  > >In at least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two
cases
 > planes
  > > came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.
 >
 > Criminies, I have an almost near-mid-air-collision every time I fly!

Me to. How does one file one of those injury claims because another
airplane got within two miles?


 >
 > Allen
 >
 >
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