Best place for live Greek music?

Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> Keep in mind that traditional Cretan music is a far cry from
> rembetiko, or what's commonly thought of as laiko, music. It's
> definitely an acquired taste, and for that reason, you generally won't
> find it in places catering to tourists. However, it's all over the
> place in Chania or Iraklion, if you know where to look. Check out the
> little basement bistros in the center of town.

Thanks, Alex. Well, that really "hard" stuff, traditional Cretan, would
have been a pleasure to find - rather than all the pop-type stuff that
the bars I found in Iraklion and Matala were playing. What a pity I
didn't seek your advice before I landed, Alex! I walked the streets of
Iraklion till about mid-night and found scores of outdoor bars, all
absolutely crammed with people sitting down and talking/drinking, but
all had trendy non-Greek music playing. I did hear some traditional
Greek floating up to my hotel room late Friday night - I should have
gone down into the maze of little streets nearby to find out where it
was coming from!

OK, so two things are for sure now: most of the bars have the modern
stuff playing, and there are basement bistros offering traditional.
What about the less hard laiko? Is that just a thing of
CDs/radio/television?

One thing I was really glad about in Iraklion was finding two or three
CD shops that really were CRAMMED with Greek music of all sorts.
Unfortunately they didn't have listening facilities - if they did I
could have stayed there all day!

Eddy.
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"Eddy" <eddy.bentley.TakeThisOut@DELETEallROTTENSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:DHrii.5037$fi4.59@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> There's one thing that none of the guides seem to mention: Greek music.
> To be specific: laiko. I know a lot of non-Greeks don't particularly
> like it, as much as I do anyway. But on the off-chance that there are
> some people here as mad about it as I am, where's the best place to hear
> it, other than the clubs of Athens?
>
> I was in Crete recently, and saddened to find that all of about 20 bars
> along the sea-front, except one, were playing "Euro-Pop" or a very
> contemporary almost new-age kind of music. I want the old traditional
> Greek music, rembetika, or laiko!
>
> Thanks.
> Eddy.

The Third Eye restaurant in Paleochora (SW Crete) has regular Rembetika
perfomances - and these are very, very good indeed!

Henry.
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 09:34:24 GMT, Eddy
<eddy.bentley.TakeThisOut@DELETEallROTTENSPAMvirgin.net> wrote:
>
>Thanks, Alex. Well, that really "hard" stuff, traditional Cretan, would
>have been a pleasure to find - rather than all the pop-type stuff that
>the bars I found in Iraklion and Matala were playing. What a pity I
>didn't seek your advice before I landed, Alex! I walked the streets of
>Iraklion till about mid-night and found scores of outdoor bars, all
>absolutely crammed with people sitting down and talking/drinking, but
>all had trendy non-Greek music playing. I did hear some traditional
>Greek floating up to my hotel room late Friday night - I should have
>gone down into the maze of little streets nearby to find out where it
>was coming from!
>
>OK, so two things are for sure now: most of the bars have the modern
>stuff playing, and there are basement bistros offering traditional.
>What about the less hard laiko? Is that just a thing of
>CDs/radio/television?
>
>One thing I was really glad about in Iraklion was finding two or three
>CD shops that really were CRAMMED with Greek music of all sorts.
>Unfortunately they didn't have listening facilities - if they did I
>could have stayed there all day!
>
The last time I was in Crete was in May of 2006, and the impression I
got then was that the atmosphere had become way too "touristy," at the
expense of the local culture. It's the fault of the marketplace --
most of the tourists come for a holiday (the beach, drinking,
partying, etc.) and are not particularly interested in local music,
history, culture, etc. The marketplace gives them what they want,
which means Euro-pop music to accompany their drinking and dancing.

For a sense of what real Cretan music sounds like, go to
http://radio.grecian.net/ (You can listen to this in the background
while doing other work on the computer.)

As you may know, rembetiko music is an urban phenomenon. It originated
among the underclass in Piraeus and the refugee neighborhoods of
Athens, and came into its own in the 1920's. But I'm old enough to
remember when it was looked down upon by "proper" Athenians, who
associated it with drug users and petty criminals.

So, the islands and the outlying areas of Greece are not really the
place to find authentic rembetiko music, since it's an import into
those places. The place to find the best rembetiko music, now, is the
Exarchia neighborhood of Athens (this is the area between the
University, the Polytechnic, and Omonia Square). Be aware, though,
that lately Exarchia has been the focus of a lot of crime, vandalism,
and unrest by anarchistic elements. Since the rembetiko clubs there
operate late at night, you have to be extra careful when going there.
Never, ever, take a car into Exarchia (there's a good chance it will
be vandalized, *if* you manage to find a (nonexistent) parking space).
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

Alexander Arnakis wrote:

> The last time I was in Crete was in May of 2006, and the impression I
> got then was that the atmosphere had become way too "touristy," at the
> expense of the local culture. It's the fault of the marketplace --
> most of the tourists come for a holiday (the beach, drinking,
> partying, etc.) and are not particularly interested in local music,
> history, culture, etc. The marketplace gives them what they want,
> which means Euro-pop music to accompany their drinking and dancing.

Yep, I'm afraid this is all too true. I do worry for Greece when I am
there, and wandering around and hearing nothing but this ambient "pap"
in the bars and most restaurants. It seems to be seen as being
progressive and modern, but as you say many tourists prefer it to Greek
music. (I shall never forget the closing ceremony of the Olympic Games,
when the feast of Greek music started. Practically all the athletes
except those of Greece legged it out of the stadium!) However, when I'm
on holiday in Greece I am always out and about and never listening to
the radio. The radio-world of Greece is extraordinary.

> For a sense of what real Cretan music sounds like, go to
> http://radio.grecian.net/ (You can listen to this in the background
> while doing other work on the computer.)

Alex, thanks for this. I can't wait to have a look around. So far I
have been listening to:
http://www.e-radio.gr/
Do you know it? It's fantastic. So many stations and the system works
so incredibly well. The one I generally go to is "Oasis", but I also
dip in and out of those listed under "Traditional".

> As you may know, rembetiko music is an urban phenomenon. It originated
> among the underclass in Piraeus and the refugee neighborhoods of
> Athens, and came into its own in the 1920's. But I'm old enough to
> remember when it was looked down upon by "proper" Athenians, who
> associated it with drug users and petty criminals.

The origins are fascinating. I have bookmarked a couple of splendid
internet sites about rembetiko - the best one (of those in English, of
course) is by an American guy!

> So, the islands and the outlying areas of Greece are not really the
> place to find authentic rembetiko music, since it's an import into
> those places. The place to find the best rembetiko music, now, is the
> Exarchia neighborhood of Athens (this is the area between the
> University, the Polytechnic, and Omonia Square). Be aware, though,
> that lately Exarchia has been the focus of a lot of crime, vandalism,
> and unrest by anarchistic elements. Since the rembetiko clubs there
> operate late at night, you have to be extra careful when going there.
> Never, ever, take a car into Exarchia (there's a good chance it will
> be vandalized, *if* you manage to find a (nonexistent) parking space).

Wow! Great! Thanks for this. Exarchia, here I come . . . well, the
next time I visit Athens, that is!

Some years ago, I was told that I needed to visit the clubs out on the
route to the airport. Though Exarchia is dangerous at night, it's a
better proposition if I'm staying in central Athens.

Can you tell me more about the "anarchistic elements" causing problems
in Exarchia.

Eddy.
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On Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:44:40 GMT, Eddy
<eddy.bentley.RemoveThis@DELETEallROTTENSPAMvirgin.net> wrote:
>
>Can you tell me more about the "anarchistic elements" causing problems
>in Exarchia.
>
Exarchia seems to be the center of political/social hooliganism in
Athens (and in all of Greece, for that matter). These young men are
referred to in the press as the "known unknowns" (in that their
identities seem to be known to the police, but who evidently can't
seem to actually do anything about them) or as the "koukouloforoi"
(ski-mask wearers) from their usual costume.

There are usually incidents every week, covered by Greek television,
of rampages by these groups (of anywhere from 50 individuals to
several hundred). The incidents usually involve smashing cars,
breaking store windows, and beating up people who are unfortunate
enough to be passing by. The hooligans often "piggyback" on legitimate
demonstrations, using the demonstrations for cover and at the same
time discrediting the demonstrations. In other words, they act as
provocateurs.

The miscreants aren't really leftists. One of their famous victims
last year was the head of the Greek trade-union federation, who was
dragged out of his car and beaten severely enough to require
hospitalization. Either these hooligans are anarchists lashing out at
any and all symbols of authority, or (as some maintain) they are
mercenaries for hire, willing to intimidate anyone for a price, and
serving hidden political interests. Maybe some of both. They
congregate in a student environment, but most (or all) of them aren't
really students -- nor are they otherwise gainfully employed. All in
all, this is a black spot on Greece.
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

On Jul 6, 3:43 pm, Eddy <eddy.bent....TakeThisOut@DELETEallROTTENSPAMvirgin.net>
wrote:
> Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> > Exarchia seems to be the center of political/social hooliganism in
> > Athens (and in all of Greece, for that matter). These young men are
> > referred to in the press as the "known unknowns" (in that their
> > identities seem to be known to the police, but who evidently can't
> > seem to actually do anything about them) or as the "koukouloforoi"
> > (ski-mask wearers) from their usual costume.
>
> Very interesting! Do you have any idea of the nationality of these
> "koukouloforoi"? I hate to think they may be young Greeks, but I don't
> see why Greece should not have its disaffected youth too, like other
> countries, although I usually think of such occurring strongly
> capitalist societies - which Greece used not to be. The other reason I
> ask is that on recent visits to Greek Islands I have noted another type
> of young man wandering around, often in clusters of three or more - and
> distinctly unGreek in manner and facial expression. I have found them
> slightly chilling and intimidating. Anyway, I believe they are
> generally Albanians.
>
> > There are usually incidents every week, covered by Greek television,
> > of rampages by these groups (of anywhere from 50 individuals to
> > several hundred). The incidents usually involve smashing cars,
> > breaking store windows, and beating up people who are unfortunate
> > enough to be passing by. The hooligans often "piggyback" on legitimate
> > demonstrations, using the demonstrations for cover and at the same
> > time discrediting the demonstrations. In other words, they act as
> > provocateurs.
>
> This sounds absolutely horrendous. They sound like very active, very
> angry, "anarchists" - in the most negative sense of the term.
>
> > The miscreants aren't really leftists. One of their famous victims
> > last year was the head of the Greek trade-union federation, who was
> > dragged out of his car and beaten severely enough to require
> > hospitalization. Either these hooligans are anarchists lashing out at
> > any and all symbols of authority, or (as some maintain) they are
> > mercenaries for hire, willing to intimidate anyone for a price, and
> > serving hidden political interests. Maybe some of both. They
> > congregate in a student environment, but most (or all) of them aren't
> > really students -- nor are they otherwise gainfully employed. All in
> > all, this is a black spot on Greece.
>
> Indeed, and after reading this, Alexander, I am very reluctant to go
> hunting after my favourite music in the nightspots of Exarchia, either
> alone or with a friend or two!
>
> After writing the above, I did a brief internet search and found the
> following on an articulately written anarchist site:
>
> "Alongside continued rioting and confrontations at demonstrations, where
> banks, government offices, car showrooms and luxury hotels are stoned
> and burnt down, is the presence of 30 armed anarchist groups which carry
> out petrol-bombings and bombings in the Athens area. While not denying
> the heroism involved in attacks on the State, and the seething
> discontent among the urban youth, one notes the cult of violence that
> continues in the movement, and that leads to a massive turnover and the
> burning-out of many militants by the age of 25."http://www.afed.org.uk/org/greece.html
>
> Right, so these people are angry urban working-class Greek youth. I am
> very sad to discover this. Of course, it's a far cry from the idyllic
> view we who travel to Greece have of the country and its magical dreamy
> islands!
>
> I wonder what music they listen to! On one Greek radio station
> recently, I was disappointed to hear rap, identical to the full
> aggressive Black American form but in Greek, with only a brief interlude
> now and then of pleasant melody. What on earth do young Greeks have to
> be angry about, I wondered. Obviously, much the same sort of things
> that concern the disaffected elsewhere, I expect. When we go into a
> supermarket these days on a Greek Island we notice how the prices have
> leapt in recent years, so that they somewhat sting the holiday budget -
> mine anyway. I suppose it must be worse for young Greeks who can't find
> work in highly populated areas.
>
> Eddy.

I wouldn't be put off by going into Exarhia by the political /
anarchist element. We've stayed a couple of times right in Exarhia
Square and come and gone without any problem at all. Four or five
years ago we were much more put off by the obvious heroin addicts
gathered on Lofos Strefi at the top of Exarhia. When we were last
there they seemed much less in evidence.

We're also big fans of rembetika. I wonder if one of the sites you've
encountered is Rembetika Row - http://www.rebetikorow.com/intro.htm ?
I'll declare an interest, I'm mentioned in the credits and Pete who
produced the site was a friend of mine, but it really was a labour of
love for him and has a lot of good stuff. Unfortunately he died some
time ago, and so it hasn't been updated but still worth a visit.

Also, do you know the movie Rembetiko? A great way of getting into the
history. The 2004 Special Edition has an extra DVD with a lot of
interesting background material.

On another subject Virgin near Syntagma Square in Athens has listening
posts where you can listen to music. There traditional section isn't
great but is a good way to spend an hour on a really hot (it's air
conditioned) or really wet afternoon.

Cheers
Alan
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

Alexander Arnakis wrote:
> Exarchia seems to be the center of political/social hooliganism in
> Athens (and in all of Greece, for that matter). These young men are
> referred to in the press as the "known unknowns" (in that their
> identities seem to be known to the police, but who evidently can't
> seem to actually do anything about them) or as the "koukouloforoi"
> (ski-mask wearers) from their usual costume.

Very interesting! Do you have any idea of the nationality of these
"koukouloforoi"? I hate to think they may be young Greeks, but I don't
see why Greece should not have its disaffected youth too, like other
countries, although I usually think of such occurring strongly
capitalist societies - which Greece used not to be. The other reason I
ask is that on recent visits to Greek Islands I have noted another type
of young man wandering around, often in clusters of three or more - and
distinctly unGreek in manner and facial expression. I have found them
slightly chilling and intimidating. Anyway, I believe they are
generally Albanians.

> There are usually incidents every week, covered by Greek television,
> of rampages by these groups (of anywhere from 50 individuals to
> several hundred). The incidents usually involve smashing cars,
> breaking store windows, and beating up people who are unfortunate
> enough to be passing by. The hooligans often "piggyback" on legitimate
> demonstrations, using the demonstrations for cover and at the same
> time discrediting the demonstrations. In other words, they act as
> provocateurs.

This sounds absolutely horrendous. They sound like very active, very
angry, "anarchists" - in the most negative sense of the term.

> The miscreants aren't really leftists. One of their famous victims
> last year was the head of the Greek trade-union federation, who was
> dragged out of his car and beaten severely enough to require
> hospitalization. Either these hooligans are anarchists lashing out at
> any and all symbols of authority, or (as some maintain) they are
> mercenaries for hire, willing to intimidate anyone for a price, and
> serving hidden political interests. Maybe some of both. They
> congregate in a student environment, but most (or all) of them aren't
> really students -- nor are they otherwise gainfully employed. All in
> all, this is a black spot on Greece.

Indeed, and after reading this, Alexander, I am very reluctant to go
hunting after my favourite music in the nightspots of Exarchia, either
alone or with a friend or two!

After writing the above, I did a brief internet search and found the
following on an articulately written anarchist site:

"Alongside continued rioting and confrontations at demonstrations, where
banks, government offices, car showrooms and luxury hotels are stoned
and burnt down, is the presence of 30 armed anarchist groups which carry
out petrol-bombings and bombings in the Athens area. While not denying
the heroism involved in attacks on the State, and the seething
discontent among the urban youth, one notes the cult of violence that
continues in the movement, and that leads to a massive turnover and the
burning-out of many militants by the age of 25."
http://www.afed.org.uk/org/greece.html

Right, so these people are angry urban working-class Greek youth. I am
very sad to discover this. Of course, it's a far cry from the idyllic
view we who travel to Greece have of the country and its magical dreamy
islands!

I wonder what music they listen to! On one Greek radio station
recently, I was disappointed to hear rap, identical to the full
aggressive Black American form but in Greek, with only a brief interlude
now and then of pleasant melody. What on earth do young Greeks have to
be angry about, I wondered. Obviously, much the same sort of things
that concern the disaffected elsewhere, I expect. When we go into a
supermarket these days on a Greek Island we notice how the prices have
leapt in recent years, so that they somewhat sting the holiday budget -
mine anyway. I suppose it must be worse for young Greeks who can't find
work in highly populated areas.

Eddy.
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

On Fri, 06 Jul 2007 14:43:29 GMT, Eddy
<eddy.bentley DeleteThis @DELETEallROTTENSPAMvirgin.net> wrote:
>
>Very interesting! Do you have any idea of the nationality of these
>"koukouloforoi"? I hate to think they may be young Greeks, but I don't
>see why Greece should not have its disaffected youth too, like other
>countries, although I usually think of such occurring strongly
>capitalist societies - which Greece used not to be. The other reason I
>ask is that on recent visits to Greek Islands I have noted another type
>of young man wandering around, often in clusters of three or more - and
>distinctly unGreek in manner and facial expression. I have found them
>slightly chilling and intimidating. Anyway, I believe they are
>generally Albanians.
>
Well, yes, Albanian street crime -- as well as Albanian mafia-like
*organized* crime -- is a real problem. (I myself was robbed on the
Athens Metro by a gang of 5 Albanian pickpockets.) But the Albanians
are more focused in their approach than are the "koukouloforoi"
hooligans. Unfortunately, the latter are young Greeks. Illegal aliens
in Greece tend to apply themselves much more effectively.

Ironically, the illegal aliens (those that don't resort to crime) end
up taking the very jobs that the disaffected Greek youth might
otherwise be offered. The root of the problem is that Greece no longer
controls its own borders. Immigration is just a free-for-all.

Actually, the "koukouloforoi" are just the most visible part of a much
larger problem affecting Greek youth. Probably for every hooligan that
takes to the streets, there are ten people of the same age sitting at
home vegetating or playing video games, unable to get places in the
universities and unable (or unwilling) to get jobs. This is a truly
lost generation in Greece.
>
>Indeed, and after reading this, Alexander, I am very reluctant to go
>hunting after my favourite music in the nightspots of Exarchia, either
>alone or with a friend or two!
>
I would go. Just be very careful, and be prepared to beat a hasty
retreat at the first sign of commotion. After all, riots don't happen
*every* night. The hooligans have to take time to rest and regroup.

As an aside, you can get a feeling for the character of the
neighborhoods in Greece by looking at the colors of the graffiti on
the walls. Black graffiti is anarchist, blue graffiti is Conservative,
green graffiti is Socialist, and red graffiti is Communist. The only
one of these to worry about, as a visitor, is the black graffiti.
(Usually the classic anarchist symbol of an "A" within a circle, plus
slogans.) Nice of the vandals to color-code their "artwork."
>
>Right, so these people are angry urban working-class Greek youth. I am
>very sad to discover this. Of course, it's a far cry from the idyllic
>view we who travel to Greece have of the country and its magical dreamy
>islands!
>
In some ways, the tourist venues are a facade, a "Potemkin village,"
that masks the real situation confronted on a day-to-day basis by the
Greeks. Those who are employed in the tourist industry are the lucky
ones. Most of the society is plagued by endemic corruption of one kind
or another. This is particularly noticable in the health-care field
and the educational field.

>I wonder what music they listen to! On one Greek radio station
>recently, I was disappointed to hear rap, identical to the full
>aggressive Black American form but in Greek, with only a brief interlude
>now and then of pleasant melody. What on earth do young Greeks have to
>be angry about, I wondered. Obviously, much the same sort of things
>that concern the disaffected elsewhere, I expect. When we go into a
>supermarket these days on a Greek Island we notice how the prices have
>leapt in recent years, so that they somewhat sting the holiday budget -
>mine anyway. I suppose it must be worse for young Greeks who can't find
>work in highly populated areas.
>
The youth listen to rap, acid rock, punk rock, etc. They *don't*
listen to traditional Greek music of any kind. I suspect that
traditional Greek music is more popular among foreigners than among
young Greeks.

Let me turn your question around and ask, what do young Greeks have to
*not* be angry about? Their travails begin in secondary education,
where the system conspires to make sure that they *don't* learn.
There's a certain body of material that they're *expected* to know for
the pan-hellenic exams leading to higher education, but it's almost
guaranteed that they won't be able to master this material by
attending the state-run schools alone. Everyone enrols in after-school
tutoring mills ("frontisteria") that are mostly staffed by the very
teachers who are supposed to be teaching them during the day.
Naturally, there's a conflict of interest, and the teachers make sure
to *not* teach during the day so as to have paying customers at night.

And the portion that does end up passing the pan-hellenic exams finds
that higher education in Greece is a joke. Professorships are
sinecures, and often the professors treat their students with
undisguised contempt. There's so much politicization in the
universities that it's rare to have an entire academic year that's not
disrupted for extended periods with strikes, lock-outs, occupations,
demonstrations, and riots. This last year was a perfect example. The
government proposed to amend the Greek constitution to allow private
universities (they're now a state monopoly), and in response the
faculties and students essentially shut down the institutions to
protest that happening. The result: a lost academic year.

The increase in prices that you noticed is a direct result of the
adoption of the euro. *No one* in Greece profited by this change
except the international business elites. If the adoption of the euro
had been put to a popular vote -- and even more so, if it were to be
put to a popular vote now -- the Greeks would have voted against it.
But it was rammed through by the euro-elites with little or no
discussion. No wonder the Greeks are disillusioned with the system.
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

"Eddy" <eddy.bentley RemoveThis @DELETEallROTTENSPAMvirgin.net> wrote in message
news:c43ji.5923$oa7.4673@newsfe1-gui.ntli.net...
> Alexander Arnakis wrote:
<snipped>
>> For a sense of what real Cretan music sounds like, go to
>> http://radio.grecian.net/ (You can listen to this in the background
>> while doing other work on the computer.)
>
> Alex, thanks for this. I can't wait to have a look around. So far I
> have been listening to:
> http://www.e-radio.gr/
> Do you know it? It's fantastic. So many stations and the system works
> so incredibly well. The one I generally go to is "Oasis", but I also
> dip in and out of those listed under "Traditional".

That's a new one for me - thanks very much!

Incidentally, the rembetika group that I mentioned elsewhere call themselves
Andromeda Kompania. The leader, who I believe is teaching locally, studied
traditional music in Athens, Belgrade and elsewhere. The small ensemble is
good - and he is very, very good!

Henry.
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music? 

laiko or rebetiko is found in many cute places in Monastiraki or Plaka
in Athens

usually it is in "taverns with live music"

i suggest the athens cityguide (that is best bought from any kiosk) or
online at www.athinorama.gr

also, cultureguide.gr

i live in limassol, cyprus and altho we are greek we also have to do a
special search to find laiko:(
 >> Stay informed about: Best place for live Greek music?