New question on restaurants in Europe

> I am far from an expert on how much waiters are paid in US
> restaurants, but I can't imagine that all waiters in all states get
> paid exactly half the minimum wage. I'm sure it varies by state (since
> minimum wage differs by state), as well as by restaurant.

Not but a few years ago, my son worked at a restaurant and made the princely
sum of $2.12 an hour. He was told that at the end of the day the tips would
be collected and redistributed to all workers according to a percentage
agreed upon in advance. Did you know that the servers' tips were
redistributed that way? Even the dishwashers got a share of the collected
tips.

Anyway, my question goes to wondering about the validity of restauranteurs
claiming that they depend upon illegal immigrants because they "can't
afford" to pay a living wage. The entire restaurant business here is
evidently built upon a house of cards and relies upon patrons supporting it
with their tips. We won't even get into the area of taxing the tips and
unreported tips, etc. That's a whole 'nother can of worms. So, if they were
forced to pay minimum wage to their employees, how much of necessity would
the prices go up? And wouldn't that be better than continuing this shady way
of doing business as it is now? Just get the law changed and let the public
get used to NOT paying tips for a change.

Pat in TX
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:45:16 -0600, "Pat" <Orion DeleteThis @starrynight.com>
wrote:

>
> > I am far from an expert on how much waiters are paid in US
> > restaurants, but I can't imagine that all waiters in all states get
> > paid exactly half the minimum wage. I'm sure it varies by state (since
> > minimum wage differs by state), as well as by restaurant.
>
> Not but a few years ago, my son worked at a restaurant and made the princely
> sum of $2.12 an hour. He was told that at the end of the day the tips would
> be collected and redistributed to all workers according to a percentage
> agreed upon in advance. Did you know that the servers' tips were
> redistributed that way?


Again, your statement is not correct. You state things that occur in
*some* restaurants as if they were universally true.

*Some* restaurants pool tips and divide them. Others do not.


> Even the dishwashers got a share of the collected
> tips.


At *that* restaurant.

You also say "the princely sum of $2.12 an hour" sarcastically, as if
that were an unfairly low amount. At McDonalds, someone who makes
$2.12 an hour probably couldn't live on his salary. But a waiter in
one on New York City's top restaurants, where the average patron may
spend over $150 on a dinner, usually does very well financially.

The point is that there is great variation in salaries, as well as tip
distribution practices, depending on what restaurant you are talking
about. These things are not universal, the way your posts make them
sound.


--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

Pat <Orion.DeleteThis@starrynight.com> wrote:

> I would like to know how much money the restaurants pay their workers. Their
> lowest paid workers--like servers. In the USA, these people are paid one
> half the minimum wage, thus necessitating the payment of tips by customers
> so the workers can have a living wage. Could somebody respond to wage
> practices instead of tipping practices?

For the UK, I already told you what they're paid- or at least the
minimum that they can be paid. Look up the UK minimum wage on the
internet, and you can also find general information on wages in general.

Most answers you got directly to your question gave you an idea of
wages- did you read them, or are you just trolling?

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"He can't be as stupid as he looks, but nevertheless he probably
is quite a stupid man." Richard Dawkins on Pres. Bush"
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

> For the UK, I already told you what they're paid- or at least the
> minimum that they can be paid. Look up the UK minimum wage on the
> internet, and you can also find general information on wages in general.

Your answer did, but all the other posts related to tipping.
>
> Most answers you got directly to your question gave you an idea of
> wages- did you read them, or are you just trolling?

No, they didn't. They were just talking about tipping and the origin of the
word "tip", etc. I was trying to figure out how much restaurant prices would
rise if the customers stopped being forced to pay half of the wages of the
restaurant's employees. You see, one of the reasons the restaurant owners
give for supporting illegal immigration here is that "if we had to pay
everyone the minimum wage, it would ruin our business! We NEED illegals to
work for us."

I was just trying to see how other countries paid their workers, not how
they tipped the servers.

Pat in TX
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

Pat wrote:
>>
> Not but a few years ago, my son worked at a restaurant and made the princely
> sum of $2.12 an hour. He was told that at the end of the day the tips would
> be collected and redistributed to all workers according to a percentage
> agreed upon in advance. Did you know that the servers' tips were
> redistributed that way?

Yes, in the UK too generally. This pool is called a "Tronc", and is well
known to the Revenue, who normally tax the employees an agreed figure
based on a moving calculation of how much the total pool is likely to be.
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

Pat <Orion DeleteThis @starrynight.com> wrote:

> > For the UK, I already told you what they're paid- or at least the
> > minimum that they can be paid. Look up the UK minimum wage on the
> > internet, and you can also find general information on wages in general.
>
> Your answer did, but all the other posts related to tipping.
> >
> > Most answers you got directly to your question gave you an idea of
> > wages- did you read them, or are you just trolling?
>
> No, they didn't. They were just talking about tipping and the origin of the
> word "tip", etc. I was trying to figure out how much restaurant prices would
> rise if the customers stopped being forced to pay half of the wages of the
> restaurant's employees. You see, one of the reasons the restaurant owners
> give for supporting illegal immigration here is that "if we had to pay
> everyone the minimum wage, it would ruin our business! We NEED illegals to
> work for us."
>
> I was just trying to see how other countries paid their workers, not how
> they tipped the servers.

OK- interestingly, you will certainly find some restaurant owners in the
UK suggesting that they should be allowed to pay below minimum wage.
Even some famous chefs (Anthony Worrall Thomson- sp?) has suggested
this, and further that we'd get better service if we paid less up front,
tipped more for service- I think he'd like the US system which is about
15-20% tips.

He may or may not be right, but I generally suspect the motives- as a
lot of business owners would rather pay as little as they can.

Generally, I'm content with the UK standards of service... so I don't
think that particular system needs fixing.

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"He can't be as stupid as he looks, but nevertheless he probably
is quite a stupid man." Richard Dawkins on Pres. Bush"
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

Pat <Orion.RemoveThis@starrynight.com> wrote:

[]
> Anyway, my question goes to wondering about the validity of restauranteurs
> claiming that they depend upon illegal immigrants because they "can't
> afford" to pay a living wage.

Of course, the question I would ask is whether or not the UK minimum
wage is a living wage. It certainly isn't in London, which is why you'll
find so many waiter jobs there are done by poorer people from other
parts of the EU who are willing to live in more cramped conditions
(often sharing flats with a lot of people) and can earn money that way.
Lots of young Spanish, Italian, even French and increasingly eastern
European citizens are working in these kinds of jobs. Things must be
pretty bad in Italy if there is someone willing to do absolute minimum
wage work collecting tickets for a dirt-cheap bus company at 4am on a
drizzly Manchester morning...

SImilarly in chinatown's here I've heard that many of the waiters live
in very cramped conditions- one of my students used to work in one!

--
(*) ... of the royal duchy of city south and deansgate
http://www.davidhorne.net - real address on website
"He can't be as stupid as he looks, but nevertheless he probably
is quite a stupid man." Richard Dawkins on Pres. Bush"
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

> The point is that there is great variation in salaries, as well as tip
> distribution practices, depending on what restaurant you are talking
> about. These things are not universal, the way your posts make them
> sound.
>
>
> --
> Ken Blake


Your point is well taken, but I had to start the discussion somewhere. So, I
started with what I knew to be true around here. I am not writing from every
state; I am writing from North Texas. However, you didn't address my actual
point, which is the use of illegal immigrants to hold down salaries in
restaurants and how that affects the entire economical system of food
service.

Pat in TX
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:10:06 -0600, "Pat" <Orion DeleteThis @starrynight.com>
wrote:

>
> > The point is that there is great variation in salaries, as well as tip
> > distribution practices, depending on what restaurant you are talking
> > about. These things are not universal, the way your posts make them
> > sound.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ken Blake
>
>
> Your point is well taken, but I had to start the discussion somewhere. So, I
> started with what I knew to be true around here. I am not writing from every
> state; I am writing from North Texas.


Well, if you had said "..in North Texas.." or "...sometimes..." or
maybe even "...often..." I would have had no disagreement, and nothing
to say. But you stated things as universal truths, and as universal
truths they were simply false.


> However, you didn't address my actual
> point, which is the use of illegal immigrants to hold down salaries in
> restaurants and how that affects the entire economical system of food
> service.


That actual point, which you added later, not in your original message
in the thread?

I didn't address it because I know nothing about the subject and
therefore have no opinion on it.

--
Ken Blake
Please Reply to the Newsgroup
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

"Mike O'Sullivan" <mike DeleteThis @nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:5t3tl2F1aba3nU1@mid.individual.net...
> Pat wrote:
>>>
>> Not but a few years ago, my son worked at a restaurant and made the
>> princely sum of $2.12 an hour. He was told that at the end of the day
>> the tips would be collected and redistributed to all workers according to
>> a percentage agreed upon in advance. Did you know that the servers' tips
>> were redistributed that way?
>
> Yes, in the UK too generally. This pool is called a "Tronc", and is well
> known to the Revenue, who normally tax the employees an agreed figure
> based on a moving calculation of how much the total pool is likely to be.

Many years ago when I was a student I used to do some 'waiting on', .

As a general rule the male waiters opt out of 'The Tronc' because people tip
men more.

I used to make approximately double if I opted out when I worked at a
biggish provincial hotel.

--
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

"Pat" <Orion.TakeThisOut@starrynight.com> wrote in message
news:5t303uF1akb8eU1@mid.individual.net...
>I would like to know how much money the restaurants pay their workers.
>Their lowest paid workers--like servers. In the USA, these people are paid
>one half the minimum wage, thus necessitating the payment of tips by
>customers

No, this does not necessitate the customer into paying a tip.

If the customer doesn't tip, the proprietor cannot just shrug and say "no
tips, no more money", he HAS to make up the difference himself. Why are
customers conned into believing that the servers salary is not included in
the price?

I don't have to pay the checkout girl at the supermarket her MINIMUM wage
separately, this is included in the price of the goods that I buy, why are
restaurants ALLOWED to be different.

And whether the minimum wage is a liveable wage is an entirely different
argument. Restaurant work is far from being the only minimum wage job.

tim
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

>>I would like to know how much money the restaurants pay their workers.
>>Their lowest paid workers--like servers. In the USA, these people are paid
>>one half the minimum wage, thus necessitating the payment of tips by
>>customers
>
> No, this does not necessitate the customer into paying a tip.

Right; only the customers who know what is going on in the restaurant
system. After knowing people in that business and reading newspaper columns,
etc., pretty much the entire public knows how shabbily the people are paid.




>
> If the customer doesn't tip, the proprietor cannot just shrug and say "no
> tips, no more money", he HAS to make up the difference himself. Why are
> customers conned into believing that the servers salary is not included in
> the price?

Because customers know people who work in the industry, and because the
question of tipping comes up in the newspapers from time to time. This way,
the system is exposed. Also, people here know that by law restaurants are
exempt from the minimum wage statues. Every time discussion of raising the
minimum wage comes up, the exemptions come us as well as a topic.

>
> I don't have to pay the checkout girl at the supermarket her MINIMUM wage
> separately, this is included in the price of the goods that I buy, why are
> restaurants ALLOWED to be different.

That is what I want to know! The owners claim that the public wouldn't pay
and wouldn't go out to eat if the owners had to include full wages for
employees in the price of food. This results in the use of illegal
immigrants who do not complain about their wages. A good read is "Kitchen
Confidential" as it covers this subject.

> And whether the minimum wage is a liveable wage is an entirely different
> argument. Restaurant work is far from being the only minimum wage job.
>
> tim

True--but restaurant work isn't even a minimum wage job.

Pat in TX
>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe 

"> *Some* restaurants pool tips and divide them. Others do not.
>
>
>> Even the dishwashers got a share of the collected
>> tips.
>
>
> At *that* restaurant.
>
> You also say "the princely sum of $2.12 an hour" sarcastically, as if
> that were an unfairly low amount. At McDonalds, someone who makes
> $2.12 an hour probably couldn't live on his salary. But a waiter in
> one on New York City's top restaurants, where the average patron may
> spend over $150 on a dinner, usually does very well financially.
>
> The point is that there is great variation in salaries, as well as tip
> distribution practices, depending on what restaurant you are talking
> about. These things are not universal, the way your posts make them
> sound.
>
>
> --
> Ken Blake
> Please Reply to the Newsgroup

Several friends of mine have worked in nice restaurants where this is not
required. By their own choice, they share their bounty with the bartender,
dishwasher, etc... because they realize -- like most things in this world --
that they are part of a team. Having a good relationship with these folks
makes the server's job much easier. A pissed off bartender can easily screw
up an order.

But I'm not sure that this is relevant to your discussion of immigrant
servers. The servers at top restaurants aren't usually immigrants -- many
are highly educated professionals who know they can rake in the bucks in the
hospitality business.
 >> Stay informed about: New question on restaurants in Europe